Tim Locker 0:00
Hi, and welcome to power the network. I'm your host, Tim Walker, Vice President of broadband for CBM. Today, we're going to be continuing our conversation with Mr. Dan Lovak, from PLP. If you didn't happen to catch the first episode, you can go back and catch up on that we had a great conversation about broadband today in the US. And we're going to continue that conversation here. So let's jump right back into it.
Dan Levac 0:30
But the training aspect has to take on a different approach to because now if you have that burnin churn mentality, what happens to quality? What happens to, you know, building something that lasts a lifetime?
Tim Locker 0:44
Yes, that's out the window. That's, that's one of the things that I struggle with. You know, I mean, let's face it, we're a sales organization, our job is to sell product, that's how we make money. That's how we all make a living. But there seems to be a real big push in the last several years of cost cutting, you know, quality doesn't seem to matter as much anymore. And even though I'm haven't been around as long as you have, I'm still kind of an old school guy. You know, in my personal life, I don't buy junk, I buy quality stuff. You know, in our business, life, we do the same, you know, so how do we change that mindset of, you know, a buyer, that's got all this power, because everybody's got to funnel through them. And they're, you know, so saving nickel, it's
Dan Levac 1:33
education, it's education, but I always look at it from the passion perspective, again, is that PLP and I know, CBM is the same way we're gonna push education, we're gonna push training, we're gonna get it out as far as we can into the system to create an awareness of what it takes. Lately, as of late, I've been issuing a challenge to anybody I get in front of the talk, too. I call it the business card challenge. Sounds pretty simple, right? Yeah. What is it? So the business cards challenge in a nutshell, is to take young people that are learning to trade. And I would present inferior product on their table and ask them to fix it to the point where they would be willing to put their business card on it to say, I'm done. This is the work I've done. This is the work of accomplished. We they used to do that.
Tim Locker 2:20
If that were my time. Yeah, we used to joke about it. Did you sign that? Did you sign
Dan Levac 2:23
it so that way back in the day with the old carriers, they when we use lead, right, that could be part of my problem could be heavy lead poisoning, but they used to put an insignia card inside every splice they did. So when I opened those splices, I saw that someone was extremely proud of the work they did. And I loved going into those places. because it reminded they different than Oh, absolutely right, for sure. Absolutely. Because they were proud of their work, they took ownership of it. So now I challenged the younger people to be willing to do your work so that you may get a phone call one day from someone else that's in there next and says thanks for setting this up. Yeah, hey, thank you for setting me up for success. Yeah, great job, great job.
Tim Locker 3:06
Think about and you're starting to see some of that on social media. I mean, we're seeing a lot of splicers that are, you know, taking pictures and making posts and putting that stuff out there. And so hopefully through that, we'll see some of that there's a
Dan Levac 3:17
company called m&a fiber optics, right? They're a contractor, not a great big behemoth. But on the back of their business cards are actually actually pictures of completed splice cases. Because that's how proud they are. And they use it as a calling card. Yeah. And I look at the contractors that we work with that I mentioned the PCCA. Thank you, I can't get away without mentioning the PCCA. Get a shot of that, would you please. So the PCCA, the power communication truck Contractors Association, every contractor that's in that group represents about 85% of the deployment of fiber optics in the United States today. That's
Tim Locker 3:54
awesome. So how many members are there then in that, in that organization,
Dan Levac 4:00
it varies in the organization from time to time, but it's typically you've got upwards of 120 to 130, contractor organizations that are in it. And then a lot of vendors and then individual people that do it. But I always look at this like I do in life, you get out of it, what you put into it, plain and simple. If you're not willing to invest in yourself, and everything we do and understand this, it's got to be bigger than oneself. Every purpose we have has to go to what I'm going to refer to as the service side of what we do, okay? I go to these organizations, and I do things for them. And I'll join committees and I'll become as much a part and I'll immerse myself in their thought process to try to bring a different perspective to what we're trying to promote in regards to how we perform as individuals in the service side of the house. It's got to be bigger than you. It's got to be bigger than your company. It's got to be bigger than the organization and it's even got to be bigger than the industry. And the thing that bothers me the most about words, right? We've always had words that meant certain things. And the government takes a word and they changes the definition to suit their needs on it. And I'll give you one. I'm just gonna harp on this level of this one. This one here is just simple. It's it's essential. Okay. Yeah. To me, that used to mean that it was a really important word that you were you meant something. Yeah. Because humans only want two things. They want respect. And they want a little love. Yep. And when I say love, I'm gonna say, to be heard, right? To be understood. Yeah. Just to give me some acknowledgement, okay. When we went through COVID, they use the word essential as a divider, your essential, you're not your essential, you're not, I want to take the word back. Because when I spoke in front of the PCCA, not long ago, I said, let's look at it from this perspective, every person that's in this room today, there was about 450, is directly responsible for advancement and broadband for every man, woman and child in this country. That's pretty, that's essential, right? Absolutely. So those are the types of things that I want to push. Those are the types of things and I want the audience to understand. It's not about me being on the podcast, right? It's not about you calling me an old guy. It's got to be let's get a message out that people can understand and grab that
Tim Locker 6:32
message, I think is, is kind of hard. Like for me personally. I live in little town, Slater, Iowa. I believe it was 2002 when Huxley telephone built, I think one of the first fiber fiber, the home networks in the state in my little town of 1500. So for me, I mean, I hear all these people talking about, you know, needing broadband, but I've been spoiled for 20 plus years, and we've had that technology forever. So I kind of lose perspective on, you know, a lot of that big picture, sometimes I've been a little bit spoiled.
Dan Levac 7:09
So now it's time to change your perspective. Yeah. And understand it's not just about you. And how do we how do we send it out? How do we get better? How do we broadcast the message? How do we get to everybody that needs to be gotten to. And I'm not saying that PLP is the only way to go. But I've heard it's a good place to be. That's what I've heard. I've heard on social media, someone, somebody says that PLP is the place to be. And it is right. But where do we go from here? And how do we get a message out to people that need to understand we're in it together. And it's a long term gain. It's a long term approach.
Tim Locker 7:45
So they're not going to I think you touched on it a little bit earlier, as you know, these projects, the funding has been sent out and they want them done in four or five years. Is that even feasible?
Dan Levac 7:58
I don't know that it's feasible. It's a good dream. It's maybe it's putting the carrot out there. I'm not quite sure. But it also causes an awful lot of frustration. And like, for instance, I mean, during the COVID, there was a lot of people that panic by they did a lot of pair buying. So now that I still have a closet full of toilet paper, it still messes up the supply chain, though. Yeah, because now you've got all these companies that have excess inventory. And now everybody else that bought it at that scared price and getting out there saying now I want to return everything, you're going to end up in the same place you were 18 months ago, because this bid money is going to cause such an influx of money into the industry, that it's going to provide the same catalyst that COVID So
Tim Locker 8:44
I was going to ask that. So we've, you know, we did see that panic buying a lot of a lot of our customers, you know, we did a good job getting in front of that, because we knew the lead times were common. But you're right, we see a lot of lot of folks sitting on a lot of inventory, kind of in this weird, lol, if you will, where what's going to happen? Everybody's kind of waiting on this funding to be sorted out and Where's, where's it going to go? Who's going to do what? But what I'm afraid of is now we're starting to see customers, you know how quickly we forget things, right? But we're starting to see. Okay, so lead times are back down to a few weeks on closures. So where are we, you know, we don't need to order because you know, so how do we, how do we get in front of that again, because when all the if they're going to try to blow all this work done in five years. We're going to be right back to where we started. I mean, I put it
Dan Levac 9:36
on my phone. And I did this quite some time ago. And the catchphrase, it's on that phone is that if you're not in the queue, it's on you. So that's again, messaging that we have to get that information out to people to plan ahead, get ready, it's coming, right. We know it's coming. But that's the inevitable that's when people sat and I were all right. And I issued a comment this way and I said you know, I said I went to an event If, and there was a lot of people at this event, and it was one coffee shop, okay. And the coffee shop opened at 630 in the morning, but I thought, You know what, I'm gonna go sit by the fire at 530 and wait for the coffee shop to open. So I'd be the first in line to get the coffee, and a doughnut or whatever. Yeah. And as 630 rolled around, I was involved going through my computer and answering emails and doing this. It'll Wait for a minute. Next thing, you know, there's 10 people in line. And I thought, I'll just wait for a little bit more and the line will die down. And then I can get back in front. Right? So five people come in, and five people go out and 15 more people lined up. I see where this is going. You see where that's going? If I were to just pay attention and did what I thought I should do is get in line at 630. Right? When the doors open, I would have been done. Exactly. And I never got coffee
Speaker 1 10:54
that day. Well, I would have had a headache by noon, I did my fault. But that's
Tim Locker 11:00
one thing that PLP did a good job of you on the last go around was, you know, not forcing customers to take large orders, but get them in the queue. And that's where that came from. Get them in the queue, set some target date, so we can work with the factory and get, you know, keep production rolling and get your spot in line or you're gonna not have coffee. Yep.
Dan Levac 11:23
Well, we had some customers in their infinite wisdom with the panic buying. They figured a way around the system. Right? So they're going to order the same type of product from three different manufacturers and three different distributors. Yes, we so all of a sudden, there's a great big bunch of orders out there, each of them worth $12 million. Yep, that company only wanted one order for $12 million. First one to deliver. So everybody else had invested all the money in raw materials and staging product and getting it ready. They got told nevermind.
Tim Locker 11:54
And then what's that duty are really messes everything
Dan Levac 11:57
up at the factory. It messes everything up for ordering inventory and raw materials. They didn't care. No, no, because I and what do you do? Do you sit there and penalize them for fear that you'll never work with them again, to double edged sword is a very, very difficult double edged sword.
Tim Locker 12:18
Really quick, let me tell you a little bit about CBM. We're manufacturer's rep firm right here in the Midwest. What that means is we are a contracted sales organization that worked for multiple different manufacturers. So we can be a resource for you on many different facets. We were established in 1960, and now are an ESOP company. So we are employee owned. And what that means is we have a different mindset here. The tagline around the office is act like an owner. So our employees, they think differently think as owners and we operate that way. And we are inspired by that leadership. For we can be a resource for you. Please reach out to us at CBM rep.com. But you talked about a little bit too of the $35 million that you guys have invested. And through the time through the COVID period, and through all these long lead times, we actually PLP had record output, yep, actually grew and put more product out than ever before a
Dan Levac 13:31
year during that year over a year. So ever stopped?
Tim Locker 13:35
Is it going to be as bad the next time really since since you've put all that money into production? Or are we in a better spot now? Because let me put it
Dan Levac 13:45
this way. The catalyst prior to COVID was art off. Sure. And it was valued at about $9 billion. Does that answer your question slightly levied is $42.5 billion less than 20% tax, which is $8.5 billion off of that. My point being is that this industry has never seen an influx of government money to this extent, for a very, very long time.
Tim Locker 14:12
Yep. So it's up to us to figure out how to do it right.
Dan Levac 14:17
It's up to us to make sure that we're having conversations with our buyers, with our end users with our engineering groups. We got to continue to have those those conversations. Some of them are not pleasant conversations. But you know me well enough in the industry have those. A lot of people don't mind hearing it from me because they know they're going to get the absolute truth. Yeah, even if it's a truth, they don't want to
Tim Locker 14:39
hear one. That's why you're respected in this industry.
Dan Levac 14:42
Well, I appreciate that. I don't think many people know who I am. But for those three that do, yeah, that's why it's one hand you count on. Yeah, you're with me.
Tim Locker 14:52
I'm with Okay, good. Numbers are hard. I know. You mentioned the NTIA. They do So let me make sure I understand it correctly, they are the group that is, you know, giving the information to the President. They're strictly behind the policy, correct? Correct. Have you worked directly with them? Or is it your organization's the SCTE? And those organizations that were how does that whole system CCA
Dan Levac 15:20
for one is as a very active organization that works with lobbyists, and we're in on Capitol Hill, once a quarter at least we try to go to visit our congressmen and our senators. But the problem with it is now it's the NTIA, which they've never really been part at least openly, as part of the decision makers and the policy drafters so now it's a matter of of getting back in front of them directly. So we're trying to do it on both fronts, both directly with the NTIA as well as through the other organizations that we're a part of. Okay.
Tim Locker 15:56
Yeah, you know, for me, the art off the bead, all these different programs, you know, it's hard to separate them all. And I think one of the one of the struggles just as a sales guy has been, how do we get in front of these projects, and help these folks. Instead of, you know, when, when the newspaper comes out, and it's all been released, you know, these projects are designed and they're ready to build.
Dan Levac 16:23
So that's the hardest part of what we do is to understand how far ahead we have to think the sales cycle, everybody thinks you go out and you sell it, you're done goodbye, not the case, we have to develop these relationships from the ground floor, we have to take a chance and get out in front of certain things. And you know what, you're going to miss some. And you're also going to hit some that you didn't think you're going to get. But don't undersell. And I don't mean that from a sales perspective. I mean, the importance of don't underestimate the importance of relationships within an industry. Because typically what happens if you've got certain amount of subject matter experts, right, SM ease that are in the industries. Those people are called upon by all the newcomers? Yeah. How do I do this? How do I do that? You've built that with this company X, and you've built it with company G, all these different formats that you've gone through, they will, for lack of a better term, poach their knowledge, the subject matter experts in the industry is knowledge to help them get established and build something. Who do you think they're going to call on? When it comes down to who do I call on to get the information I still need for vaults for introduction for splice closures? Yeah, you're going to call the experts for hardware, right? They're gonna call the experts that they knew. Guess who that
Tim Locker 17:46
is? That's us. That's us. Yeah. So
Dan Levac 17:49
don't ever undersell a relationship. I know people would rather text or email rather than call or rather than sit next to someone. But to me, sales,
Tim Locker 18:02
sales is a different game, you know, today than it was
Dan Levac 18:07
not saying it's different. But one thing hasn't changed. People still want respect and love. Yep. And we all provide it a different way. Right. So it's incumbent upon us to continue to demonstrate the importance of the relationship. Amen.
Tim Locker 18:23
I agree. Totally. So we've talked about a lot of things that are, you know, new in the industry, a lot of things, how much things have changed over the last so many years? What is one thing that you think is still the same, and will maybe remain to be the same?
Dan Levac 18:44
Nothing, nothing. Anything is the same? Anything that is the same? Like I said earlier, we're wither on the vine and die, or become totally irrelevant. If you're not willing to make a move, if you're not willing to understand that things have changed, and you need to adjust your approach. You need to adjust your style, you need to adjust your thought process, your you will become irrelevant.
Tim Locker 19:08
I think I agree. I think I agree. I thought a lot about it. And I really tried to find something there. But I think you're right. I remember a conversation I had with with a contractor. We were talking about fiber blowing, jetting fiber. I can you know, we've done it this way. 20 years, and we can pull that in just as fast as you can tell you're a
Dan Levac 19:30
fisherman. Yeah, right. Yep. What can you tell me about any body of water?
Tim Locker 19:36
Well, friends, if I've been there, will change will change. Even what I can tell you. I can change. What I can tell you about fishing is I make the same mistake in all fish history. You know, this is where they were. This is what I've done before and not be open. That's
Dan Levac 19:50
my point. Yep. That's my point. Things change. You need to adapt. You need to be able to look at life from a different perspective, even if it's not yours. Call on someone else that's on the front line, that you can depend on that you know that they're seeing it differently than you saw it when you were there. Because when you were there, dude, I was using LED cables and led sleeves originally, right? And
Tim Locker 20:14
I didn't have to mess with copper. I was doing all five, right? So
Dan Levac 20:16
I went through that whole thing. I changed my whole perspective and my whole approach twice, you know, once with my first 10 years in the industry, and then ever since I've probably reinvented myself a number of times at PLP
Tim Locker 20:30
I wish they'd released some of those little videos. Oh, no, no,
Dan Levac 20:33
they're forbidden. They're forbidden. And things have changed. We're not allowed to show those.
Tim Locker 20:40
That's probably true. HR isn't our thing. So we have to Well,
Dan Levac 20:43
that's why they hired PLP hired a corporate attorney was for me. Yeah. And it's been beneficial for PLP overall. So
Unknown Speaker 20:53
that's awesome. Yeah,
Dan Levac 20:54
that was good.
Tim Locker 20:55
Is there anything else you want to touch on? I know, we had a list of things to get through. And I think
Dan Levac 20:59
we got through an awful lot of stuff. I guess the one thing that I look at is how do we maintain and continue a relationship that we've had for 60 years? And you're going to be around for a while? I've got some time. I know Marla. Marla doesn't have much tread on the tires. I'm about done. Right. So I'm rounding third heading for home now time faster. Yeah, well, the only good thing is I tripped over third base. So I'm just going to take a seat for a while before I make my way home. But, look, I just want to make sure that we have that same passion. generationally speaking. So we have to train the people that are our next. Yep. To understand the importance and the value of a relationship, and how close a relationship it should be between a manufacturer's representative and a manufacturer. Right. Yeah,
Tim Locker 21:52
I totally agree. And I think you know, first thing, communication, obviously, having hard discussions, obviously, everybody put their big boy pants on and have those conversations. And that's how you, that's how you grow. And that's how you move forward. So yeah,
Dan Levac 22:09
and it's gotta go both ways. I mean, there's times that we get the call that says, We think you've done something incorrectly or whatever. And that's one of the things that I really respect about PLP is we are always open enough to look internally and say, You know what, I did make a mistake here.
Tim Locker 22:25
Yeah, I've never I've never seen PLP, do the opposite. They've always done the right thing. And they've always taken care of the customer. Number one, and that's, you know, that's our motto here at CBM. You know, take care of the customer pleasing manufacturers, if we do that will be successful. Awesome. Well, Dan, thank you again, for joining us. I know you've got a busy schedule, and you came in just for this, and we certainly appreciate it.
Dan Levac 22:50
It was absolutely my pleasure. Pleasure. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you.
Tim Locker 22:58
Wow, that was great. Once again, I always appreciate talking to Dan. He's so passionate about what he does. He's a leader and a mentor in the market. And we certainly appreciate him. Once again, if you have questions about PLP, it's plp.com. Or you can reach out to us here at CBM. It's CBM rep.com. We'd love to be a resource for you and your company. Thank you again for joining us on power the network. And we'll see you on the next one.
