00:00
Hi, and welcome to Power of the Network. I'm your host, Tim Locker, Vice President of Broadband here at CBM. We've got a special location here. We're shooting from the M.A.T.S., Mid-American Telecom Seminar and Showcase, here in Kansas City. You know, it's a great place to get in front of so many customers and have all of our manufacturers under one roof, so it's a great venue for us. We've got some hacklers in the field, but you know, we're not worried about what they're going to do here. So it's been a fun event. We're going to have a conversation with Mr. Larry Fossett.
00:29
of Finley Engineering. Interesting to be our first engineer on the show. So I'm anxious to get his perspective on what the broadband industry looks like. So tag along, stay with us. We'll get right into it.
00:48
Larry, thank you so much for joining us today. You bet. You know, we're here at the Matt show in Kansas city. Great local event here that a nice trade show here in the Midwest, mid-American telecom seminar and showcase. It's a great show. But you know, what have you seen or what have you learned this week that's come to mind? Well, it's a good opportunity for Finley to come in and we both have clients here, right? And so long standing clients.
01:17
people we work for for a long time. So we're having dialogues, what it takes to get things to the finish line for them this year, right? We've had lots of things going on and it's always kind of a final push to beat the weather and to get the last cut over done and all that. So we've been talking that, we've been talking about what we can pull forward, you know, from 2025 into 2024 to help them prepare.
01:44
and get ready to go for next year's projects, right? So pulling those forward where we can. Obviously, there's lots of funding opportunities. So we're trying to get people geared up, areas kind of selected. Those final maps, I think Missouri has released theirs even yesterday, today. We had some areas of interest and now it's kind of refining those, if you will, to get them into that final.
02:12
area that's a fundable area. So, you know, what those look like. Where do you think we're going to see this money go? You know, obviously where we're at today is a more telecom, you know, independent telco related show, but you guys also do a bunch of work with utilities. We do. And, you know, we're seeing, you know, the utility industry, you know, really going gangbusters in broadband. You know, do you think it's going to be an even distribution or do you see one, one.
02:42
more favor in the funding than another? Well, that's a good question, because there's a lot of money for the state of Missouri. We'll just even focus on that with $1.7 billion that an agency of the state has to get funded out. So I think there's going to be some big awards. I think there's going to be some medium sized, as I've talked with BJ and...
03:03
and even some smaller ones, you know, but they've got a lot of money to get pushed pretty quick. So I think it'll be a good mix of all of it and a variety of players at the table. Yeah, you know, just hearing some of the folks talk up in Iowa, you know, there's kind of some rumblings, a lot of red tape, a lot of different strings attached, those kinds of things, and not seeing a real positive push for like wanting to get the money. What happens if nobody wants it?
03:32
Then what? What do we do? It's got to go somewhere. I think that's the key is I think money is going to go somewhere. Some people may not want the red tape and some of the requirements. And we've seen those. Some of our long-standing clients are like, no. Do you think that's short-sighted or is there some meat behind that? Well, I guess everybody evaluates their own business case in their own situation. And so we've got some clients who are really going gangbusters. You know, we're kind of getting some counties.
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Preliminarily ready to go and see how that goes others have just said, you know, it's really not for us We don't want any of these requirements And we're kind of doing some other things and other plans with our own money And and have been successful in doing that. Yeah, and so we do see a mix Some are jumping in others. Others aren't so really is what we're seeing. Yeah, well clearly at the end of the day though The money's going somewhere. The money is going to go somewhere. That's always got to take it. So absolutely
04:30
You know, I'm very interested in leadership and personal growth. You know, I think it's important that you continually push yourself and not only yourself but your employees. You know, you've got to help them get better. What are some things that you've done recently for yourself in terms of personal growth and what are some things that you try to do for your folks? Yeah, yeah. It's a great, great question.
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From a leadership style, I guess I'll start there.
05:06
My style is to come alongside and be relational. I think you gotta establish that relationship with your associates and whoever you're working with. And so we have a great team at Findlay and it's really just coming alongside, building a relationship. I'm a mentor. I like to mentor and train. So that's definitely in the style. I wanna empower the individual, right? I don't wanna...
05:34
You can't micromanage, you can't be looking over their shoulder, right? You want to, you want to train them, transfer your knowledge and expertise over. Yeah. And then, and empower them and turn them loose and really watch them succeed. Yeah. And then provide support as they're going along, right? Cause there's these little one-offs and lots of questions here and there. Yeah. And you just want to come and support them in that endeavor. Yeah. And you mentioned mentor.
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What types of things, what do you think are your best qualities that you can hand off to the next generation? Well, some of the things, because we've been doing it a long time, building networks, it's crazy to think that I've been at Finley 29 years, but some of the things that just come second nature and, well, this is how we do this, well, it's training that person to think that way.
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And to say, oh, the next step is this or this because we've been doing it for a long time and you got we got some really talented people coming in some great skill sets, but it's how you apply that skill set a project manager per se or even a GIS person. You know that does all these things with the new maps and and the way we do things these days, but you got to tailor that for our industry for a broadband network right and so we kind of understand it because we've been doing a long.
06:51
So it's come alongside training those mentoring those those folks into what we're doing The what we do is still the same building networks. Yeah wireless fiber The how we do it is very different than when I walked in the door 29 years ago What do you think what do you think spin the biggest change from when you started just straight-up technology? again, I'm dating myself here, but we used to draw staking sheets with
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by hand in maps and schematics by hand. And it's all Esri based now. And we can drive down a road and a sheet gets printed or drawn right in front of us, as we drive a route with GPS technology and that's even advanced even more. So the how we do it has changed. What we're doing is still very similar contracts and building networks. How do you think AI is going to play a role in what you do? Oh, AI is tremendous. And I even think we use it today.
07:50
Right. So there's some design tools that we use, others in a, you know, in a competitor space do the same thing. Used to we would sit down with a big piece of paper and start counting dots on a map by hand, right? Well, you use technology to do that today and we can design counties in a matter of... So the time that you... Oh, absolutely. ..can get things done. No, it's not perfect. You don't just take it and go build it or order a bill of materials from it. Yeah. But moving that needle...
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you know, designed accounting, for example, you go back and verify it, what's the accuracy level or what are you finding? So a lot of the times, and again, it can vary, you know, if you're out in Kansas where everything's nice, square, neat, you get some pretty good, some outputs, and I'll say it gets you 80%, 85% there a lot of times. In the windy, curvy hills, you know, you might have a house that, you know,
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from a GIS perspective is closer over here. Well, it's up over the mountain and across country. And you're like, no, that doesn't, we have to actually build another mile over and a half mile up to get to that location. You know, some of those kinds of things. So it's really just understanding what it takes to build that network. Yeah. Yeah. But it moves the needle along the way and it's pretty cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So help us understand how many different positions or different jobs
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I guess, jobs within your organization. Somebody that's looking to get into the industry, there's obviously different things that you need from employees, but what are some of the different roles that are available within the engineering? Yeah, so it's a big gamut for us because we also manage project outside plant construction projects.
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design and engineering, so even on the access equipment. So there's the technology and routers and switches and even the big, I call them the big iron routers, the uplinks to the wide world web and VLANs. So the really technical stuff down to just construction and managing those and getting as built records right and being out in the field testing.
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cable, doing all those kinds of things. So it's a wide gamut. We need project managers, people who keep things on time and on budget. And as a matter of fact, I think that's probably one of the skill sets that we're encouraging a lot of our folks. I don't care if you're a CAD drafter, a guy in the field, wherever you sit, we need to have that, just that project management mindset of, okay, I'm on time and on budget. When is this due?
10:42
And how quick do we need to get this turned? And keep in mind, we need to keep the quality high. It's not about volume, get it cranked through and done. No, we need a quality product for everybody. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because that hits close to home for me. You get what you pay for, right? I think that applies to so many different things, but early on, we've seen a lot of different rounds of funding go through. We've seen a lot of different projects.
11:11
I mean, some were rebuilding already, you know, using government money a second time. So to me, I think it's real important that with this large amount of money that's coming with BID, we we really owe it to ourselves, the country, the taxpayers, frankly, to do it right. So, you know, to me, it can get a little frustrating when it's always just about price, you know, price, price, price. Where do we where do we cut the price? Usually on materials.
11:41
I don't think the long term. Yeah, no, I agree. I think we're building networks, fiber based networks for sure, who that life cycle, the lifespan, if you will. There you go, the lifespan is a long time. It's not five years, 10 years. This is 25, 30 year plan. So you really want to keep that in mind, because this is for the long haul. Yeah.
12:10
And so many times it's different funds too that are building the project and then maintenance and those types of things aren't necessarily accounted in to come in to play years down the road. So it's hitting a different budget if you will, but I think a lot of times that gets overlooked when they're saving pennies here and not accounting for what it's going to cost them on the back end.
12:37
Yeah, we try and keep everybody and as we consult with folks, try to talk about the pros and cons and what we've seen work well and haven't worked well and understanding budgets are important. Yeah. Yeah, you know, back in the day, we would do budgeting and make sure we had enough money. So you padded things up, right, to make sure that you didn't run out of money, went to go get a loan or whatever to do a capital project. Well, today,
13:05
It's a business case. A lot of things are business case driven. So you want to make sure you have enough money, you know, to cover inflationary costs as they happen year on year. But you don't want to over fluff it because there's no project. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so you got to be more dead on. It's finding that balance down. It's a tricky thing to do sometimes, but we certainly try. How widespread are some of your customers? Are you just mostly here in the Midwest? Or do you go?
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across the nation? No, we, we, we, uh, at Finley go across the, across the nation. Uh, we have, um, Historically five business units and we've got a project in, uh, out in Washington state going, uh, a few in Colorado, uh, some in, uh, New Mexico, we've been down in Texas, um, Florida. We've been all over the place. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a wide gamut, uh, geographic as well as, uh, you know, it's not just traditional.
14:01
broadband providers anymore. There's wireless guys that have got in, municipalities, electric co-ops, all these are new players into the market. And we help all of them. That's one thing we've really seen is just that, you know, broadband is such a generic term anymore. It is. It's not just your telcos that are doing it. It's a whole gamut of folks now. Yeah, so we're in all of those markets.
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Finley also has an electric side of our house. So we do transmission line, distribution, substation stuff as well. Power utility work. Yeah, so that's kind of an opportunity for us to help those folks who are interested in the fiber markets, because those two worlds in essence have come together. Yeah, we're seeing that more and more every day. And so that fits us very well.
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What makes CBM different? They value our customers, they value our manufacturers, So they behave in a different manner.
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and also the communication market. These markets are overlapping more and more every day and the ESOP and the way we're structured actually allows us to be more flexible and cover those markets and put our expertise where they need to be. So if you're looking for a manufacturer's rep, high quality sales staff, good relationships, look no further than CBM. You can find us right here at cbmrep.com.
15:42
So for my own personal growth, and even just for other salespeople out there, you guys see a lot of vendors, see a lot of product, a lot of people knocking on your door to show you things. What is one thing that you see some salespeople doing well and what is one thing that you wish they would maybe do better? Yeah, good question. And we do have.
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People come in right and appreciate you guys Salespeople that bring solutions right that we will sit down and talk about here's what the owner wants to do and and People that will come in and listen and kind of get the overall bigger picture here. What's going on? and then be responsive I think guys who And sometimes you know you guys pull rabbits out of the hat and then it becomes the expectation right well They did it for me in ten minutes last time. Yeah
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Let's do it again. But being responsive back is really something that we see and it's good to see salespeople doing right. And so appreciate that. From things that can drive us a little bit nuts perspective is when somebody comes in and tries to oversell. We need this this time and then they're like, well, yeah, I can do that and, and, and, and, and it's like, no, we just really need, let's stay focused over here.
17:06
You know, that's one thing over the years I've tried to keep in perspective. Like, obviously you want to be around a long time. Sure. Right. So try to not get too defensive over every single little win. There's obviously, I mean, you look around the show here today, there's a whole room full of vendors. There's room for everyone. Um, you know, you win some, you lose some. Right. Um, but you know, what I have, what I've kind of come to understand too is
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You know, I used to think that, okay, I need to have a reason to come see a customer. Like, you know, and we want to be respectful, not waste people's time, et cetera. But what I've come to find out too is like, it's okay. A good reason to go see somebody is frankly, just to ask questions, you know, what are we, to figure out the what you need, you know? And I, you know, as I was younger, I used to struggle with that where, you know, I need to have, you know, something new.
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the next gadget or whatever. But really, I think if you actually go with an open mind and try to figure out what those needs are, you know, I think at the end of the day, you get a lot further. Right. I look at it on the engineering side, because we're going to see some of the same clients, right, is taking the consultive approach. You know, yes, we're engineers, we do engineering. We do that, but it's the
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the consulting side and what are you doing? What are you looking to do? And a lot of times they're asking us questions and you questions like, well, what do you see other people doing over here or over there? And does that maybe fit us or not? And so we bring value to them and that can often be a good way to come into the door. Because your role frankly is very similar to ours. There's choices. Absolutely. There's a lot of engineering firms even here today. So, you know, customers have choices. They do. What do you think is one thing that separates you guys from...
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from other firms? Well, that's a great question. We will come in and we listen. You know, a lot of times people just again come in and say, well, this is what we do and how we do it. And this is what you're gonna do if you, you know, no, no. Finley, we wanna sit down at the table, consult, have a conversation, see what it is you're wanting to do and then find the right fit for that. Yeah. Right. And so many times they answer their own questions but you just led them. They can. By listening. Yeah, they can.
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Yeah, so it's taking that consult approach, listening, establishing relationships, and meeting their needs. What do you think is one of our biggest challenges right now, moving forward in the broadband market? Well, with the bead funding, there's a lot of money getting ready to come on to the market, and a lot of people gearing up for that. I think it's going to be a labor resource.
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labor item, you know, with COVID there was the material items. And I think a lot of people have readjusted some supply chain and you guys can talk to that probably a little better than even I can, but I think the labor side is gonna be the hard part here. Again, people who have been in the business and are qualified, keeping those folks and training new folks alongside, but I really think
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is important to us and even finding those people. We have a team dedicated at Finley. You're just doing a fantastic job of finding quality people. Yeah. That's been a common thing for a lot of people that we talk to, whether it's just looking for employees or the bigger picture, like you talk about, how are we gonna get enough workers to actually put this fiber in the ground? It seems like labor is really a big concern. What...
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what can we do, what should we do? How do we train this many people? You know, the retirement, that's, I don't even know how many miles of fire the whole total project is, but it's a lot. I know, right? Yeah, I know. That's the million dollar question, I think, now, is getting people in trades. And I know there's several in the, you know, regionally here in Missouri, who are doing training programs and bringing young folks along.
21:24
Kind of setting them up. I think one of the things we had talked about earlier on in preparation was the high school and college market. Yeah. And bringing some of those kids and getting them excited about what we do, right? And the opportunities that are here before us. And so, you know, providing those I think is important. And then just...
21:46
As much as anything, I think it's creating an environment that people want to come to. And that goes back to the relational side of things and a team approach that we've taken and want to maintain going forward as we grow. And Finley has really grown and we have a growth path ahead of us. But it's maintaining that team approach. I got your back, you got mine. And let's do this together and support each other. Are you seeing as you continue to grow and add new people, are you seeing a trend of...
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more younger the next generation coming to the team or? You know, we've added across the board really, and because we want some people with some experience. Yeah. Because you got these some new guys, great with technology, great with a lot of things and that's driving a lot of what we do. But we've actually been sending some of these GIS guys and gals, by the way, folks with our outside plant people.
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and let's go to the field and let's look at what an aerial line construction is. And these construction units that you guys are putting on the prints, they can see the reasons why. And when you can kind of... That's so important. So we've been teaming up folks and just making the conscious effort to get those together because the guys who have been doing it a long time may be a little questionable on or not questionable, but reluctant on the technology side. Yeah.
23:08
And the technology people are like, hey, we can make this, do this, do this, but what works in the field? So it's really been good to pair those. So from both sides of the spectrum, you can kind of fill the voids. Yeah. Oh, I see why you're setting it up this way. And on the flip, you can understand what's going, what they're doing in the field. Instead of having a pick list, it's got 60 items in it. Well, let's whittle that down to the five we really need because it saves us time in the field. Yeah.
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And so, oh, we're seeing light bulbs connect and... Yeah, we try to do that even within our organization. You know, you got outside guys that have been around for a long time and sometimes you take for granted what you know. Right. You know, and maybe you've got a new team member on the inside and doesn't have the knowledge. And so we have to stop and take the time to show them and teach them.
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what it is, because I mean, you know, like I said, we take it for granted, but you're sitting in there and you know, you're getting bombarded with questions for stuff that like, I don't even know what that is. Well, that's another thing because a lot oftentimes we could kind of get into, well, I'm really this is what I do. And I understand this. Well, what is that connecting to? Like we're bringing cables back to a building. Well, what happens once we go inside the building and how do we get inside the building? And then
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to a fiber panel and what's all that connecting to and how is that layout? And there's different ways of even doing that, right? You can bring tails out or you can take cables in and you gotta do some different things with them to meet codes and those kinds of things. But it's understanding the bigger picture, oftentimes is kind of an aha moment as well. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, so it's understanding the whole picture. So let's circle back a little bit. Tell me about one of your mentors.
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You know what they did for you what it meant to you and sure how it affected you well I've been very blessed in my life From the beginning with you know a dad who who spent a lot of time with me In showed me a lot of things. He's been in the industry. He was in Telecommunications for 29 years And so he kind of showed me the ropes right from an early age when I came to Finley and that was through a summer internship By the way and spent some time in the field
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with some guys learning the ropes, you know? It's one thing to have the college education and degree, but it's the real application in the real world. And so I spent four summers with Finley out in the field during the summer. That through your college? Yeah, through college. Yeah, it was fantastic. But mentorship, when I actually got to Finley, a gentleman by the name of Kim Little took me in under his wing and he kind of showed me the breadth of things. You know, yes, here's the design and the...
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the outside plant side of things, which is kind of where I came from, but then all the electronics and everything that connects to and the DC power systems and everything that runs the inside, right? So he took me in under his wing and we just spent a lot of time together. And he would say, hey, let's go, we gotta go inventory this. Come on down and let's do that. And inventory mainframe. Including you. Including, that's absolutely right. And as we're going, it's the reasons why. You know, it's not what we're just gonna go do this and not.
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There was the dialogue back and forth. So, you know, he opened up and shared with me everything he knew. And I was a sponge, so to speak, and just soaking everything in, right? It's like, it really works well when you can do that. And that's my style as well. I've taken that from, you know, on the business side, and I've had some personal mentors, some men have come alongside me on a personal basis and family and...
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and faith who've mentored me well there too. So it's been on all aspects of my life. And I wanna carry that forward, business level as well as personal level. Yeah. Fantastic. Oh, that's great. You have to cover all facets of life and keep that balance. That's right. And that's incredibly important. And I don't know what your travel schedule looks like, but we're pretty hectic. We're on the road a bunch. Some people think it's just a party every day.
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but that's really not the case. And we'd just as soon be home with our families as well. But it's how we've chose to make a living and it's what we do. So we have to figure that out in life as well. But it's very important to have that balance. And you mentioned having other men beside you that keep you accountable. Absolutely. You know, it's funny. I feel like I'm getting old.
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because some of those things are important now, right? Older, older, there we go. Older, I'm just old, I'll just admit it. But like, you know, how you behave around your friends and your friend group, like it looks a lot different now than it did 20 years ago, you know? So it's interesting to me.
28:11
I didn't think I'd ever say that, but like, I actually see it now. So I don't know if I'm finally getting more mature or what it is, but it's, uh, it's an interesting dynamic, you know, that when you actually realize that and put thought into who you're with and how you treat them and how they treat you. And, and, you know, whether you're able to, um, be honest and have those hard conversations, you know, when you're being a putz and your buddy's gotta be like, dude, you're
28:41
we gotta bring this up, you know, it's a different conversation than we would have had in our twenties. It is, well, and I've been very, again, very fortunate. I've had some men pour into me and we've had a lot of heartfelt, heart level conversations. And so that's a little more normal for me. It's very foreign concept to a lot of guys. It is. Having that accountability and those guys that come alongside and you do life together with.
29:09
And it's really fun when you can tie that right back to the business side. And some of these companies that we worked with, we have that relationship, you know, and we can talk shop and business, but also family and relationship stuff too. And so it's really good. And we're so blessed in this industry. I mean, how many of your customers are some of your best friends too? Oh, that's the great thing about this match show, right? We get to kind of come in and.
29:37
from suppliers and vendors to clients themselves and even competitors, you know, we shake hands and talk in the hallway and, you know, how's life? Again, there's a lot of work out here for everybody and just, it's a unique place and it's a good time. I always enjoy this. For sure. What would you say is one thing, one misunderstanding about your job that you would disagree with?
30:07
All right, so this is going to go to engineering, right? The engineer joke, right? Engineers are boring. And I'm going to say, no, boring people are boring, not engineers, right? So you can't throw us all into one bucket there. We're not all stereotypical engineers. Well, you've been in the industry for almost 30 years, like you said. And there's a little bit of, well, you kind of mentioned it, but we do it this way.
30:36
There's maybe a little bit of a stigma, I guess, if you will, but like, do you feel like once you've got it, like we do it this way and there's a rubber stamp, is that true or is there more thought into changing and being more flexible? Yeah, sure. Is that a fair assessment or would you argue that? Well, you know, there's some efficiencies to just doing it the same way. Sure.
31:06
do it again and do it again and do it again. But as we enter in dialogue, and there's some companies that we've done that, they've been doing it away for a long time and they wanna maintain that for a variety of reasons. Efficiencies, we're not doing it this way over here and that way over here and some way else over here because that can get a little confusing to new people coming in, right? But at the same token,
31:33
we're joining them where they're at. And so if they've already started something and it's more efficient for them to continue that, because they're the one who has to operate this thing, right? We come in, we do our project, we hand it over and we move on and or come back and do the next one, right? But it's how have you been doing things? What's been successful? Some say, you know what, we tried that and this didn't work well, what does? And we bring that expertise in. Other times it's like, well, we really want to just kind of keep the thing.
32:02
going forward and expand, all right, we can do that as well. So it's a variety of techniques, it's a variety of technologies, but it's really tailoring it to what somebody wants to do. And, you know, scalability, flexibility, all those kinds of things can roll into that. But yeah. Sometimes we hear, well, we've always done it this way. It's back to listening. Maybe. We need to be listening to what they're wanting to do. And then provide, because we do see the breadth of everything back to the dialogue we had earlier. They're asking little questions.
32:32
Well, we have been doing it this way, but what do you see that's worked well somewhere else? And then maybe that's a new idea for them and their team. But you talk about it and like, oh, some, you know, maybe we do want to try that over here. Or this is a little different from the way we've been doing or the geographic area or whatever. Well, in the whole country, I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, you're not going to build, you're not going to build a project in Southern Missouri, the same that you are in, you know, Northwest.
33:00
Nebraska. Yeah, they can be very different. So and some similarities too, though. Yeah, there's there's several similarities Oftentimes, but no you got to kind of tailor each one. Yeah. Yeah Oh, that's great. Uh, anything else you want to get off the chest while we have you here? No, I appreciate the opportunity. Uh, thank you guys for the invitation and uh, No, thank you so much. We appreciate you being here and you know, we've
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We've had a relationship as long as I've been here. And I know CBM has worked with you guys even longer. So we value that. You're a valued partner to Finley as well. So thank you guys. Thank you. Appreciate it.
33:43
Thanks again to Larry for joining us. It was a great conversation. I think we can follow up and have many more with him. So thanks again for joining us. We really appreciate it. We value our relationship that we've had over the years. And just a reminder, if you've got a product that you need representation for, or you've got a project where you need assistance, look no further than CBM, cbmrep.com. Thanks again for joining us. And until next time, I hope you've been enjoying.
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Power the network.
