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Hi, and welcome to Power of the Network. I'm your host, Tim Locker, Vice President of Broadband here at CBM. Today we've got a special guest for you today. We've got Mr. Jake Irwin. He is the Senior District Sales Manager for the North Central US for Duraline. I've had the pleasure of working with him for the last four years or so. And if you haven't met him yet, I'm glad you're gonna get the opportunity to do so here. So great young guy. He's...
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real aggressive, doing a real good job for us and for Duraline and we're happy to have him on the show. Follow along.
00:40
Jake, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and I'm glad you could be here with us. Let's get right into it. You've been with Duraline, what, a little over four years now? Yeah, just over four years. You've really managed to advance yourself pretty quickly. So, we joke around, I remember way back when, four years ago when you first started, taking this kind of little baby face kid in to see these customers. But.
01:09
you've really grown a lot of respect from people in the industry really quickly. And I think that shows just by how fast you've come along in your career. But what are some of the things that you think helped you kind of get through that initial challenge, I guess, if you will? Right. So I guess kind of my background is I started in the telecom world, but not necessarily outside plant, right? So...
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I started with a company called Subtle, where they're transitioning fiber to coax, and then going throughout the apartment, as there was a ton of turnover.
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I got the opportunity to go into kind of an outside sales, which took a, was a big jump, right? you've never met. build confidence. A Wisp.
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six months and I was a project manager there. Decided I wanted to go back into sales and ended up finding Duraline. And so yeah, this industry was pretty new. I had some background in the wireless world, but I think what comes with a lot of success is just being confident and leveraging your network, whether it was you, Tim, whether it was my boss, Eric, my former boss, Catherine, just going in there with confidence and being able to serve those customers and do what.
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you told them you were going to do. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I remember right, maybe in your first month or two, a conversation that you had with one of our bigger customers where somebody was trying to take advantage of you and you kind of put them right in their place. And I mean, that got my respect right away. So, I think you don't judge a book by the cover, obviously. Right, right.
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You know, young versus old, are you seeing, obviously with Duraline, we've seen a hiring trend of a lot of younger folks now coming into Duraline. Is there a purpose behind that? Is that something that is an industry trend? Should other companies look at doing the same thing? Yeah, I think we're seeing that shift, right? We're seeing quite a bit of turnover from what we call boomers, right? To younger people coming into this industry.
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And what a lot of people say, and I think you said it yourself, is this was kind of a hidden gem of an industry that it's not talked about much in undergraduate programs and colleges and places like that. It's kind of a hidden industry that's really, really growing right now. So I think the more that the word's getting out, the more that it's hitting the news, you're seeing more and more younger people be interested in this, as well as...
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the people who are in this industry are recruiting some of the younger folks that they talk to that, hey, this isn't a bad place to have a career. So, so many new people coming into the industry, let's say you take somebody younger and they don't necessarily have the knowledge, where's that balance between being willing and able to ask questions, but also trying to...
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not seem like you don't know anything. I didn't know a ton about underground construction And you kind of just have to find that person and how to learn how to design a network
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questions, as many questions as you can, on how these things work. So I think being able to lean on some people, to a customer, I mean they're probably happy you're trying to learn.
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Also, there's a ton of materials from Duraline that you can gain a lot of knowledge from. We have a program called Duraline Academy now that is very, very good at teaching people all different kinds of aspects of the industry. So it's a very beneficial tool, and I think a lot of people can use that. Yeah, I think you're right too. I think people respect it more if you ask.
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than they do if you try to make believe that you know. You know, we've had some newer employees in the past that we've done some things where we've actually sent them just to go work with a customer, you know, go spend a week in the Splice trailer with them and just learn how to do that stuff. And what I've found is that customers actually like that. You know, they want to help train your people.
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I think they get more invested in that when they feel like they have an impact. So I think you're spot on. I think you have to ask those questions and not fake it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can sit here and be professionals about duct, but what goes along with duct, right? So being able to sit with a customer who deals with other aspects of duct or the industry, it's really beneficial for that person to learn all those things. So I think it's a really good move. Yeah, I agree.
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So, you know, younger versus older, you know, we're in the midst of looking for some, you know, new folks to join our team too. And what I've realized is I'm an old guy. I don't know if anybody else, you know, caught onto that, but yeah, it's kind of hit me, you know, I've been in the industry a long time. And as I, you know, think back, you know, I started here, I think I was 32 or so, and that's been a long time ago. So.
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Trying to find new talent, I think sometimes we find ourselves looking for ourselves. And I don't know if that's, maybe that's not, nobody's out there like that anymore. I don't know if people, as the generations change, I think it's hard to find.
08:02
And that's what you're looking for, I guess. Or maybe I'm not looking for the right thing. Right, I think that's what it is, right? Is generations look for people that are similar to them and it's never going to be that way, right? Technology, right, our industry, technology has changed so many things. People just grow up differently. Their values maybe are a little different than we want to work hard and do these things, which is very important, right? They just have different, maybe values or goals than what you did at 32.
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different habits, you know. Yeah. We have a lot of, you know, I think just in general, a lot of people say, oh, these young kids, they can't do it and they don't want to work. And I don't agree with that. There's a lot of young kids that are really busting it. You know, that's a fact. We see a lot of that. There may be some that don't want to, but in general, I think, I mean, there's some really good upcoming talent, but you know, just habits. Like I look at, you know, I look at my son and,
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I'll have a question and that question will sit in my head for a while and he'll be like, oh yeah, here's, you just, you answer it. Cause that's just how we're raised. It's just a generational difference. So speaking in terms of generations, how do you think, what do you do differently in your role than the guy before you? So the guy before me was also relatively young, but.
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So what I've done to kind of adjust is I've taken bits and pieces, and ask questions and have been successful in this industry and kind of mold that So my approach is I always want to be, you know, do everything I can for the customer, right?
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Also, moving forward, I want to find the next big project. It's great to win one, but what's next? and you always got to be hungry to find that next thing No, I think that's a great point. It doesn't matter what.
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what line we're talking or what product, but yeah, we're there to help them. And I think sometimes, they don't necessarily always understand that. I think salespeople typically get a kind of a bad rap. They throw out the typical used car salesman type and people don't want to be sold to like that. But I think also sometimes they'll put a wall up and not realize that we're here to help. Right.
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And there's also a point of that to where it's to a fault. or with Durland for a very long time, that they trust and built their relationship with. There's always more people to go find.
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I think that's the difference between maybe somebody who's been in this role for a long time, not saying everybody, right? But somebody who's been in a role like this for a long time, they tend to go where what's comfortable and not go find, oh, hey, this brand new customer is going to build a million dollar network. We're not going to call on them because it's uncomfortable and we got to make a cold call again. I just know my good old boys and I'm just going to keep calling on them because it's comfortable. I think that's common in any...
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any industry, just in sales in general, you hit it right on the head, you're going to do what's comfortable. And it's interesting though, so you're newer to management, right? In the last what year or so, roughly. How has that transition been? Because I mean, I feel like you still have that drive to go out and make sales, but then you also have to balance the leadership aspect. So what does that look like? Yeah, it's been a...
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It's been a change, right? So a majority of it has been just the hiring process. So just hiring the team, which I think is a huge part of being success in management, is having a team that believes in what you believe and is also willing to go hustle and be successful, right? They have that drive. But.
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Yeah, I mean it's been a change, right? It's been difficult, but as a manager, And help them make maybe some of those tough decisions and be able to have that support for them to lean on.
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and watch people succeed and find new things. So it's been a change. It's another, it's a challenge too, because you and I have shared the same territory. Watching somebody else in your territory, they're going to do it different than you did. And so it's hard to sit back and not try to get in there. I 100% agree, yeah. But you have to let them.
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you know, go their own way. They're going to find their own comfort zone, you know, really, which you want, like, it's kind of a tough balance because you want to have that comfort zone where you do have relationships, but then you do have to challenge yourself to. Right, right. And you know, another part of that is, is their success is your success. So you're kind of like, hey, you know, this is how maybe I would do it. You can do it however you want, but like maybe let's push them in that direction. And maybe that's a mindset I probably need to adjust eventually here. But,
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just try to get them on the right path because their success is also mine. Yeah, and everybody's different. So one of your guys is going to behave totally different than the next. Yes, exactly. And so, yeah, understanding how they operate individually is probably something you have to work on. Learn that. Right, you got to find their motivating tools, right? What motivates you and how do we continue to grow on that? Yeah.
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What makes CBM different? They value our customers, they value our manufacturers, So they behave in a different manner.
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and also the communication market. These markets are overlapping more and more every day and the ESOP and the way we're structured actually allows us to be more flexible and cover those markets and put our expertise where they need to be. So if you're looking for a manufacturer's rep with high quality sales staff, good relationships, look no further than CBM. You can find us right here at cbmrep.com.
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How do you find that? What are you looking for? Yeah, that's a good question. So I guess I'm motivated just like I kind of talked about earlier. I always want to find the next big thing. So I find a big project and it's super successful. Okay, what's next, right? What's coming down the pipeline and continuing to build off that? And then also just seeing
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customers have positive feedback, right? to make a project or a customer successful, How do you identify that motivation Yeah, so I mean, like I said, it's tough.
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having a good call and being able to be home with your family at night. I mean, people are motivated by so many different things. It's kind of hard to identify it right away. The more you kind of got to understand them personally to get them to that point, right? So say a guy is just super happy and super proud that he made three sales calls.
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to this person, because they were going out of their comfort zone, they weren't just going to be an order taker, right? Okay, that's awesome, I'm glad you're home, but what are you going to do next, right? So how are you going to grow on that? And then now next time you make six sales calls, four of them go good, now you're even happier, right? So what does that motivation look like is still something that you got to try to identify. And you touched on how they're personally motivated. You kind of have to go down that path. You have to know your people on a very personal level.
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but then as a leader, it's also a challenge because, okay, you develop a friendship by doing that as well. So how do you maintain that balance between still having a strong leadership position, doing all of those things, and then also not crossing too far into the friend zone. Right, right, yeah, and that happens, right? You become friends with, which is awesome, right? It's great to be that close to your employees, but you also have to
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understand that we are all here, right, because of our company, Duraline, right? So we have to look at what's best for Duraline, and if you're not kind of doing those things, then you just, you can't be scared to have those tough conversations. They're not fun, but you can't be scared to have those tough conversations and just tell them out, right? Hey, this is what's happening, and this is where we need you to be or need you to go.
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And those tough conversations, but going back to confidence, And I think everybody appreciates it when, everybody's on the same page, And the most important thing,
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as a manager, right, then it just kind of eats you up hoping it gets better. We're late on an order. and you can deal with the backlash later.
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The big ones, right, is Duraline and microtechnology. So microtechnology has grown significantly over the years and you've been a huge part of that in helping Duraline grow that. But within microtechnology, micro-trenching has been more and more popular. And I know it's had some faults, right? Even here in Kansas City, down in Memphis, I know there's some cities that really struggled with it, but the technology has really improved.
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And it's had a lot of success. Mostly the technology in the filler, the backfill? Yeah, it's the filling that comes after they vacuum it out. They'll saw it in, place the conduit or fiber, and then they'll put that backfill. And that was, yeah, I believe that company, maybe don't quote me on this, but that company that originally had the backfill went out of business and now somebody has a better one. There's, yeah, new technology. I think it was mostly a frost heave.
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Yeah. The issue up north. So yeah, traditionally we've seen it kind of bigger in the South, you know, Texas and Arizona and down in that market, but we're starting to have a little more success up in the other parts. The Northeast, the Midwest over in Ohio, they've had some success doing it. And the benefit of it is you can just install so much, so quickly, right? You can do, I believe it's five times faster than any normal, you know.
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even microtechnology, right? Just standard microtechnology. You can install five times faster. And the homes passed. When you're doing it that fast, the cost also decreases, right? So the upfront cost for everything may look a little expensive, but by the time you implement how long it took you to do, you save a ton of money on that as well. Yeah, so I think if you're looking at, you know, by the foot in terms of the saw cut, that's kind of the main expense. Right, right. And the equipment, right? You got to...
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There's quite a few contractors that have the equipment now. I know the equipment is a significant investment. But I mean, from Duraline, we have a ton of partners on it. And if someone's interested, we can bring them to a job site and show them how it works and all that stuff. So I mean, Duraline's very good. If somebody is interested in a new process, we're very good at doing those trainings and getting them to see all those things and have some hand-on experience. Yeah, no, that's great. So we...
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Even let's go back to just traditional micro, you know, four way, seven way, future path, et cetera. We have seen significant growth, but it still seems like we have some of the same challenges. You know, what are the biggest things you think we need to overcome? Yeah, I mean, recently is, and maybe we'll talk about competition in a little bit, but competition has become so strong, the cost of standard conduit has come down so much.
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And the also competition in Micro has also came in hot and heavy recently as well. So that's been a big challenge, is just the upfront cost, right? CapEx versus OpEx, right? We've all talked about it. You may save a ton of money using Micro, but you may not have the upfront cost to do something like that. So I think that's the biggest challenge we're facing recently.
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just because the cost of standard conduit is so cheap, really, I mean, if that's what we want to call it. Well, and even just a few years ago, when we went through everything with COVID and prices go up and I mean, it was almost what, three times what it is now. Yeah. You know, it's a little easier because traditional duct went up at a much greater rate than.
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than what the micro did. I mean, we have to continue to push We know it's going to benefit, There's so many use cases for it
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inch and a quarter or two inches in the ground. Yeah. So let me ask you this question. For years and years, I've heard it, people just say, duct is duct. So what's the price? It's kind of become a commodity item, but would you say true or false? Duct is duct. I would say it's 75% true. And I say that because if you think about
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you know, what ducts made of. It's made of resin, which is obviously a commodity. And also, if you think about the last three years, probably, we went from six or seven competitors to 25, right? In three years, I mean, that's significant. So entering the market must not have been that big of a challenge for a lot of these competitors because you're buying a commodity, you buy the equipment, it's kind of self-efficient. I guess...
24:16
where I say it's false is the quality of that, right? So who's operating these machines? Are they buying the correct resin that meets, you know, the standards that the Plastic Pipe Institute writes, are they meeting those standards? And then also, you know, from a Duraline perspective, if something goes wrong, are they going to be able to take care of you? From Duraline, if you have, God forbid, you have a quality issue, but if you do, you know,
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someone's going to be out there within a week, if not a couple of days, and we're going to take care of you and we're going to make sure things are right. So yeah, I would say it has commoditized just because of the competition that's joining the market. Yeah, no, I would agree too though. You know, I think a lot of people kind of have the misunderstanding too. You know, a traditional, let's say inch and a quarter, orange duct, there's no UV in there, correct? Correct. I mean, it's orange duct.
25:11
And I think there's a difference in, people buy it by the truckload, so it might sit in somebody's yard for six, eight months or whatever, and it's sitting there taking all the sun. And I think there is a quality issue from one manufacturer to another, or quality concern, I guess, if you will. Not all of it's going to sit in the yard for six or eight months and still not be brittle and check and have issues going in the ground. So even though, yeah, it's a commodity product
25:41
you know, down in the dirt right now, When you're putting that product in the ground, that have the quality assurance process which helps avoid a lot of those things. or whatever that looks like, right?
26:08
So I think you and I both understand the value of good relationships, to help build long-lasting relationships? for a very long time, and that's kind of how Duraline got to the point where they are, right? And the way we do that is we just service them as well as we possibly can, right? Our operations,
26:37
our executive team, our sales team, to the best of our abilities to these customers. Duraline does, as well as, hey, if there is some sort of issue, right, Duraline's going to be there to take care of it.
27:05
put our pipe on a different reel, whatever. and help those customers do those things. when maybe they want some hybrid micro product or whatever. we've got the engineers that can put and actually do that.
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relatively quickly, so I think that's pretty impressive to kind of show the flexibility of what we can do. Yeah, we have a pretty good, a really, really good R&D team and that runs stuff all the time, testing new things, new markets, all these new things that they do on a daily. And some of those things, right, it's just, sometimes those are just a customer kind of fight.
27:58
fighting the medicine as we call it, right? They're fighting the medicines, trying to reinvent the wheel, and we're like, yeah, we'll do it. But, you know, it probably makes more sense just to do these things that we make millions and millions and millions of feet of, but we can do this, right, if this is what you want. So, yeah. No, that's great. One more plug for Duralign Academy, where do we find that? Yeah, so you can go to our website, and there's a Duralign Academy up in the top right corner, and you can sign up, and there's...
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probably 20, 30 mini courses that you can take. There's some Bixie credits on there as well. And if you have any issues with logging in or signing up, you can reach out to CBM or Durline and we can get you straight away. And also if there's some sort of company or contractor that's continuously hiring people, we can actually customize it to them as well, right? So.
28:54
Obviously, labor. So she can make their own kind of corporate plan. Yeah, exactly. Training programs. And we can implement it into their training or whatever they're doing. We've seen more and more of that. So I know labor is kind of an open door, right? For some contractors and some internet service providers. So yeah, if you're constantly training new people, we can definitely help with that. That's awesome. Well, Jake, thanks again for coming in.
29:19
I really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure to watch you grow. And I'm proud of what you've done over the, just simple short four years at Duraline, but it's a pleasure working with you and I can't thank you enough. Yeah, thanks for having me. And I appreciate all the things you've taught me to help grow me to the success, CBM as well. So thanks. Awesome.
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Thanks again for joining us on Power of the Network. to come in and visit with us. Please remember, like, share, subscribe to the show. or expert advice from a quality sales force, We'll see you next time on Power of the Network.
